What are the Rules of the Game?

GeekTherapy · February 28, 2021, 6:00am

Originally published at: What are the Rules of the Game? - GT Radio

#287: Josué, Lara, and Link discuss how using video game rules as a framework can help us better understand how to succeed in real life systems. When we deeply understand the rules, we are better at knowing how to play within the rules – or how to break them.

Transcript

Josué Cardona 0:07
Welcome to gt radio on the Geek Therapy network. During Geek Therapy, we believe that the best way to understand each other and ourselves through the media we care about, my name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Lara Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:19
Hey,

Josué Cardona 0:20
and Link Keller. yo,

Link Keller 0:24
what’s up?

Lara Taylor 0:26
It’s always it’s always like, I don’t know, my heart stops, are you gonna say me first? Or Link first? who has to say, hey, first?

Josué Cardona 0:35
I never know who it’s gonna be. All right. So it’s my turn this week. And I’ve been thinking a lot about rules. Okay, and specifically, like framing them in the sense of video games and how useful it can be to do that. So let me let me bring up a few examples of what I mean. I’ve been thinking about Breath of the Wild. Lately, I’ve talked to people who the few people I’ve ever heard from who do not like Breath of the Wild. It’s because it’s too open. Like, there’s no direction like you don’t you don’t know where to go. You don’t know what to do. Right? And, and I get that, I get that, right. It’s like, Oh, I need instructions. I need a waypoint. Please tell me what to do. The moment I step out there, and I see 10 different possibilities. I don’t know where to go, and I don’t know what to do, etc. I’ll say, okay, that’s interesting. That’s interesting. And then I’m thinking about the people who are still playing with the physics of the game. And having fun with it, years after it came out, trying to figure things out. And they’re not hacking the game, right. They’re just, they understand the rules of the game. The rules of the world. And they’re, they understand them so well, that they’re able to do things that we never thought were possible to do. And and I think that’s really cool. I think that’s really cool, right? But but it requires a type of understanding of the game mechanics and everything that you can possibly do within that world. When you can, you can’t do to then possibly do these amazing things. And, and it’s not just completing the game, right? It’s like it’s going, just doing all these things that maybe, I don’t know if the game designers weren’t intending for you to do but they definitely weren’t expecting you to do. So I remember, I was working with very small children. I think it was, I think it was still an intern I was like, it must been like 10 years ago, I was around around gt origin story. Time, at the same place the same, I was looking at the same supervisor who told me all video games are stupid. And remember doing a group with these kids. And I remember there being a conversation. It’s I mean, but just seven and eight year old in sitting around this table. And they’re complaining about how they hate that their parents are always telling them what to do. Right. And like you they hate. They hate the rules of their home and tell somebody Okay, so like, What? What do you like to do? Not only like, what are your favorite games, right? And I was like, Oh, I love to play video games with my dad. I remember this one girl was like, Yeah, I love I love playing Call of Duty. I’m like, Okay, cool. So, do you know how to play? Like, like, what are the rules of the of the game? Take Oh, you have to do this. Alright, so what if, what if there weren’t any rules? What would that be like? And then we all start thinking about what a game without rules would be like. So and they came to the conclusion that it would suck. Right?

Link Keller 4:07
chaos

Josué Cardona 4:08
It would really suck. Like, call duty? Wouldn’t be fun if it were if there weren’t any rules? I was like, Okay, so, you know, like, and I get like, sometimes the rules aren’t? Aren’t. We don’t like them. We don’t like the rules. But I feel like only when we understand the rules, can we? And when we accept them, can we then start to play in those spaces and start to do something that you can’t win the game unless you accept the rules of the game. Otherwise, you’re just going to be complaining the entire time, about the rules, and then you’re not playing and then you’re you’re not gonna win it there’s no way to win the game. If if that’s what you’re doing. And so I’ve been thinking a lot about that idea in, in my in my day job and multiple areas of my life. And I even revisit it over the weekend. Victor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning. This is like i think i think it’s relevant. I think there’s something relevant about it. And I’m not a logotherapy expert. So I do not know if this is a good representation of Victor Frankl’s theories, and what logotherapy is about. But in that story, like the first half of the book is him. And I just read read their prologue. And he’s like, this isn’t a story about being at a concentration camp. This is a story about people’s experiences. And basically, he’s in this place, and he’s observing why some people are more miserable. Right, then other people, and why some people are, are actually thriving in this space. That’s horrible. I like the comments where Steve is in the house. Yeah, man. Yeah, my search for meaning is always relevant. Thank you, thank you for validating my idea steve. And so, I, I’ve been thinking a lot about that, in that. I remember all my clients, and there’s something about accepting that sometimes feels like, like, you’re like, you’re compromising, or you’re yielding, right? Like in your, in your in your real life. But only when you get to the point when you can, like, accept that like, Okay, this is something, this is what’s going on. But then you understand the rules. And when you can, and you can’t do and then you can kind of move within that. There’s, at at my job, right, I do I do diversity inclusion work at my, at my, at the university I work at. And this idea has been on my mind, in a way there to where, like, Oh, you know, like some students? Like, why are some students thriving and some not? Right? What is it? about it? And it’s like, yeah, like, you can be in a class with a professor that kind of sucks, right? Then you can either like complain the entire the entire semester about it. But that’s not gonna, like, you’re not gonna get to the to the, you’re not gonna pass the class. Like, it’s like, that’s not helpful. Right? And, and so, obviously, like, I’m thinking about that I’m thinking about clients I had in the past, I’m like, Oh, no, no, this is this is, this is the thing. But for me, it’s been super helpful to frame it in the sense of games, right? Now I’m thinking about it in terms of rules of the game, if I understand the rules of the game, then I can actually get to the get to the end, or I can win, or I can actually do something with it otherwise. And this is where it gets where it’s hard. Like, I think the part where I always remember my clients getting hung up, and it’s the part where I still get hung up. And it’s, I don’t like the rules so hard, you know, that I don’t want to play the game. But some games like you’re just like, they’re just they’re like, they’re just, it’s all just the rules, right? Like you can, sometimes you can change the rules. And sometimes maybe, maybe that’s part of it. But But sometimes you can’t, or sometimes to get what you want, maybe changing the rules isn’t the most effective or easiest thing to do. So it’s been like a, like a, like, I’m revisiting this life lesson that I learned a long time ago. That’s been super relevant this week. And it was a metaphor that I use a lot with my clients, that was always super helpful. And it’s been helpful for me this week. That’s kind of what the idea that I want to explore. Any thoughts on on that?

Lara Taylor 8:46
A few things came up. When you were talking, um, I have a friend who I used to live with who he’s what I call it, game breaker, any board game card game, whatever that we would play. I would, I would never play Magic the Gathering with him. Because no matter what I would always lose. He finds the rules that synergize with each other and can break a game and he discovers how to win in the most over the top way, every time. And when I would play with him. And there’s a game that he couldn’t figure out how to break. This is stupid. Why would they do this? Why would this rule be this way? Well, that’s the way the rules are. We that’s how we got to play. And it would just frustrate him to know that he could not get around something that he thinks is wrong in the design of a game. Which maybe the maybe it’s not possible to just break the game. Maybe it’s a balanced game. Not everything is there for you to break and figure out the best way to do this and to do the thing. Um, that was the first thing that came up. Okay. Second thing that came up for me when you were talking is I’ve played a lot of the card game flux, where the rules are constantly changing. And it’s really hard to keep up. And I’ve used that with clients who understand the game, talking about what the rules are always changing. How do we adapt, like, Oh, I’m planning to win with these you collect cards, you got to put the cards on the table in a certain way to be able to win and the the card you have to put on the table in front of you change all the time, based on how people play their cards, you change the win condition. And this idea of, well, if the win condition is always changing, you can never win. Except by chance, you just happen to have the cards that need to be in front of you. And so that’s been a really deep conversation I’ve had with clients about life and how the rules always change. And even if they don’t change much. Yeah, like they change enough that it can throw you off.

Josué Cardona 11:03
Yeah, you jumped to fairness. Yeah, that’s, that’s definitely something I wanted to touch on. Further down the road, but yeah, yeah. It sucks when the rules when the rules feel unfair, or they’re constantly changing. I hate games where the rules are constantly changing. I hate that. I hate. What’s the Munchkin? Right. Well, it’s like, oh, like, you can swap hands. I’m like, No, no

Lara Taylor 11:28
cheat card built into the game.

Josué Cardona 11:30
I Cannot. But

Lara Taylor 11:34
I love flux cuz its a quick game. yeah, there’s a life lesson. I mean, if you’re trying to get a medication, and you finally get through all these hoops, and your your insurance company is like, yeah, finally we’ll cover it. But it’s gonna cost you like this much money. And it’s like, I can’t do that.

Josué Cardona 11:54
yeah

Lara Taylor 11:55
you just changed the rules. You said you would cover it. So

Josué Cardona 12:00
yeah, yeah,

Lara Taylor 12:01
it happens. Rules. I like rules.

Josué Cardona 12:08
you like rules. What rules do you like? What are your What’s your favorite rule? Top three? Top three rules?

Lara Taylor 12:13
Top three rules?

Josué Cardona 12:14
Yeah.

Lara Taylor 12:17
Well, when you’re playing a game, everybody plays by the same rules. I like that rule. When you’re playing a game, you come and sit with your friends at a table, everybody is expected to follow the rules of the game. I’m not talking about playing with kids, where you change the rules. When I play with kids, and the rules change. I’m like, okay, what’s the rule? What are we? What are we playing by? We’re gonna play the way like you can make the rule up. But we got to play the same way. So we’re on the same page. I like that rule. I don’t know in general, I like structure. And I’m one of those people that has a harder time with open world games. Um, Breath of the Wild wasn’t too bad for me, because I could find some kind of linear path. But yeah, as, as someone who loves Assassin’s Creed games, I just finished the storyline of Valhalla yesterday or the day before. And I just follow that, like, okay, I don’t need to get lost with all the other things. I can follow a path, there are rules. I usually play on consoles, where I can’t mod or hack things. So

Josué Cardona 13:29
yeah, I have two examples of games where I wasn’t playing by the same rule as the other person in the game. And I didn’t we didn’t know this happens, just tends to happen in board games. Sometimes when people don’t

Lara Taylor 13:40
when somebody forgets to explain the rules,

Josué Cardona 13:42
when woody forgets to explain a very important rule, right. And then, in that game, there was no way I could win. Because Terra mystica is so so complicated. That like two hours in when I when I learned the new rule that I didn’t learn before, and everyone else at the table know that there’s three of us, right, the other two people knew that rule, they were playing with that rule in mind. Two hours in me learning that rule, it was kind of too late for me to be able to to win the game. It Terra Mystica is just complicated. It has too many systems going on at the same time. One time I was playing checkers with a friend of mine, who’s from Belgium. And when we were playing, I get to the other side. And then you know, like it gets kinged and I’m able to move, you know, move around. And when he did it, he started playing completely differently. Because, like in Europe, it at that point, it changes like checkers is different at that point. And so I’m playing a particular way he got he finally does that too. He does. He starts playing in a completely different way. But it was one thing that changed and it felt So good to win that game. Despite, like I swapped rules, I was like, Oh, wait a minute, this is what you’re doing. I technically the rule that I was in, I just wasn’t going far as far as you’re allowing this to go. So no, we can do that. Okay. I’m in. I’m doing that. It was one switch, and I was able to adapt, and I won the game. And I’m sure my friend doesn’t remember this at all. But I ended up talking about this all the time, because it was like, it felt so good.

Lara Taylor 15:26
I think I’ve heard you bring it up, like three times on rolling for change.

Josué Cardona 15:29
multiple time on rolling for change. Yeah. Yeah, I’m glad I finally get to bring it up here. And, and it was, it felt really good to have someone try to be like, Oh, no, like, now. Basically, try to switch the rules. But I was like, No, I got you. Because I haven’t had a deep enough understanding of the simple rules of checkers to be able to adapt, make the change, and then proceed to victory. Regardless. terra mystica there was no way there’s no way like there was it was just not on my first, the first time I was ever playing the game and two hours in. But checkers? checkers, I was able to do it. Um, yeah. I mean, it depends on the circumstances and the context. If, if that happens, right, if like, the rules change, are you able to adapt or, or, or not?

Lara Taylor 16:17
Yeah, yeah. It’s also nice in games, when, say, if the rules aren’t clear, you can go to boardgamegeek. And look, what other people have done if the if rules have been updated, from the game company, things like that. I’ve had that happen several times in newer games, where it’s like, Ah, you didn’t think about this thing, I think breaks the game completely. And we can’t no one can win. So let’s look at the rules and see if we’re actually playing this right? Or we read something wrong, or so having that crowdsourcing of like, what are the rules of a game?

Josué Cardona 16:59
Yeah, there’s right now I’m playing a game called Genshin impact I enjoy very much. And I’m at the stage right now, where I’m probably watching as much YouTube videos about genshin impact as I am playing on a daily basis. And I’m at the looking at spreadsheets to min max level of obsession. But at that, at that point, now I have a way better understanding on the way that the game works. Again, it’s a game with multiple systems and all these things. And there’s that crowdsourcing aspect, there’s a lot of people working on how this works, right? Like, Oh, here we go. This is the way to optimize. But basically, you can play and then like, oh, the game gets harder, like, what can I do? Now? I have all these elements, am I using them? Right? What What else can I do? How can I optimize my play experience? And but it takes a lot of it takes a lot of study. It takes a lot of study, it takes a lot of time to begin to understand these things, enough so that I can actually optimize, like, when this isn’t really a game, you can you win, but right. It’s like, I’m definitely understanding it way better than I did. Like, you know, when I started playing,

Lara Taylor 18:18
well, and we crowdsource things and information like that in real life, too. I mean, as horrible as it is, we’re talking about taxes earlier. And if you don’t understand you get a tax person or you ask your parents who have had to pay taxes for like, forever, or I don’t know, you read up on how to do your taxes. Yeah, I mean, crowdsource that info.

Josué Cardona 18:45
Yeah. I mean, if you if you don’t know how to do your taxes, and you just do the bare minimum, you’re not going to get the better return, right? I mean, it’s the same idea, right? It’s like, there’s, it’s a pretty complicated system. There’s a whole bunch of rules, and the people who know how to do it, or

Lara Taylor 19:02
know how to game that system.

Josué Cardona 19:04
They know how to play the game. It’s a game. It’s a game. It’s a game. Some people are losing and some people are winning, because I’m sorry, you didn’t know that rule like that, but but it’s there. Yeah, there’s other fairness aspects that can go into this. But yeah, no, yeah. Taxes are definitely definitely one of those. Yeah, just

Lara Taylor 19:23
its a shitty game but it’s a game.

Josué Cardona 19:25
Yeah, Link is gone. I was going to I’ve been like, Link What do you think

Link Keller 19:33
I’m still here

Josué Cardona 19:34
you’re still there? Oh, your cameras gone? Okay.

Link Keller 19:37
That’s weird.

Josué Cardona 19:38
What do you Yeah,

Link Keller 19:39
I was trying to open a tab to pull up the name of something but okay, I broke it. Okay. Should I refresh it? Is that a dangerous game?

Josué Cardona 19:51
I don’t know. How but we can hear you so so just what do you think

Josué Cardona 19:55
let’s try refreshing. Let’s see what happens.

Josué Cardona 19:57
It’s cool, but we’re still recording. So Yeah,

Link Keller 20:00
I’m still here. Okay, it looks like it’s working. I apologize. I didn’t realize going into a different tab would break it. Join. Connecting. Alright, I’m just gonna let that do that. Um, did you ask me a specific question? Or are you just tossing it to me?

Josué Cardona 20:26
I’m tossing it to you.

Link Keller 20:28
Okay, I’m gonna say I. I like changing rules. I like breaking rules and changing rules. I’m going to come down on more of that side of the spectrum. I think what you said earlier Josué about needing to have a good enough understanding of the rules is really when you can start to actually like, play with the rules conceptually. But it does require you to have an understanding of them. And you’re talking about specifically video games, there are different ways that video games teach you rules, there are games that expect you to explore and figure it out yourself. And it’s not going to tell you anything is you you figure out the rules by figuring out where boundaries are where interactions happen, and you builds an internal schema of the rules within that game. Now, a lot of video games rely on the player having knowledge of video game rules in general. An example of that would be one of my first things that I do in in video games is if it is 2d or 3d, if I have a jump button, and there are enemies, I am going to try jumping on top of the enemy to see if that damages them ala Mario and the Goombas. Often that ends with me taking damage because no Your feet are not magical stabbers, they’re just feets. But that is me coming in with my own rules and testing them in a new game space. There are games that straight up they you know, they tell you what the rules are in the tutorial. And then there are sort of amalgamation schemes that sort of incorporate all of them, they give you a sort of basic standard set of rules that the, you know, developer assumes that you need to understand in order to get to a sort of knowledge plateau in order to start delving in and figuring out other rules within the game space, which is more on the exploration side. Yeah, I brought this book, it’s called the aesthetic of play by Brian Upton and I, I highly recommend it is a good book and it talks a lot about this stuff that we are already touching on here. I have marked some pages to see if there are things that are interesting as we come across them. Okay, okay. Let me start with this one. Okay. Um Okay, so Brian Upton uses the word constraints pretty regularly as rules is where you know, the edges of things are in a game. So he describes game constraints having four broad categories there are there’s the game as designed that is the static system of constraints that exists before the players experience begins. This is in video games, so or board games, it’s the rulebook as it exists, it is the the software data that is stored on the game cartridge on the disk. Then there is the game as encountered that is active external constraints that influence the players immediate actions, the rules that matter right now. Then there’s the game as understood that is active constraints in the players head. So that is a mixture of internalized rules, invented strategies and real world knowledge. Then there is the conceptual background, the broad collection of potential ways that a player might engage with a game, how the player understands the game depends a great deal on the conceptual Background The player starts with. So he uses a lot of chess as a go to example. But it’s basically chess would be, you know, the rules that come, the basis of chess how the pieces move, and how to win the win state. The game as encountered would be when you are choosing your move, what moves are available to you, those are the constraints, right? If your castle, rook, there we go. If your rook is blocked in you can’t move it. So it’s like that rule, that constraint is not currently applicable. But the game is understood is like, Okay, I know how these pieces move. And I know them well enough that I can start to apply them between pieces in between games, so not just in the one game that you’re currently playing. And then the conceptual background would be pulling on outside knowledge in order to apply it to the game. That would be the sort of metagaming stuff that I don’t know if either of you guys watched Queen’s Gambit. But there’s a lot of that going on, where it becomes more about recognizing how your player relates to the rules and constraints that you’re playing against. And if you understand the rules well enough, you can you can be doing whole plays that have nothing to do with actually moving a piece on the board. This is very cool. Yeah. what do you guys think of that?

Josué Cardona 27:08
helpful terminology? Yeah. The, the reason I brought it up, I’m just gonna, I’m just gonna skip to this to see to see what happens. The reason why I wanted to bring this up is because you and I often talk about capitalism. And this is all a trap to talk about capitalism.

Link Keller 27:29
you got me

Josué Cardona 27:30
or, or, or more the sense of, again, I don’t, I don’t, I’m just here to have a discussion about a metaphor that’s been that’s been useful for me. But it’s, and basically, it’s that I’m talking about games and rules, in the sense that if you’re playing a game, and you don’t like the rules that you’re in, especially in a video game, I’m sure you can, you can. You can, you can hack the game, I guess, right? Like you could, you could mod it. There’s other things that you can do. But like, in terms of sitting down, playing the game, I guess that’s an option, right? But like, just just sitting there and being like, I don’t like these rules. I like you don’t you just don’t play? But there’s some things that I don’t like the laws of physics necessarily. I wish I could fly. Right?

Lara Taylor 28:24
But you can’t

Josué Cardona 28:27
well, eventually, eventually people understood the laws of physics enough to allow us to fly, it’s not ideal. It’s not the perfect way to do it. But only if you understand how gravity works, are you able to then fly even, like, pull away from, you know, get out of the atmosphere, like, go out into into into space, but it takes an understanding of how gravity works to be able to do that. And even an even better understanding to be able to land again. Right? That it you got to learn those rules, if you’re if you’re if you want to if you want to thrive in something like that. And, and I don’t know, sometimes I think I can, you don’t have to engage if you don’t want to Link right. But like, capitalism, I see it as I see it, like, like gravity maybe, right, in the sense that if I understand it enough, right, like, I can’t do anything specifically about a capitalism on my own. I understand that there’s ways to do it. There’s ways to change it. But if I focus on that, there’s no way I can’t imagine being able to accomplish other things that I that I want to do right now. And so framing many different things in my life that way. Her face is extremely, she’s very disgusted by everything that I that I’m saying which is which is which is Which was the whole point? Yeah, go for it.

Link Keller 30:06
I’m sorry, I’m hung up on it was just a phrasing of capitalism is like gravity is like, yeah, capitalism is made up. We made that up. Gravity exists outside of human conception.

Josué Cardona 30:20
If I yes, even even if I accept that, right? Even if I accept that it’s that it’s made up. Which I mean, which I do, I don’t I don’t deny that. But that doesn’t change that. For me. It’s like, it’s like gravity. I can’t. If I if I think too hard about changing gravity or capitalism. I can’t imagine being able to accomplish other things. And this is where it gets hard. This is where it’s like, I’m not, I’m not accepting. I’m not accepting capitalism as like, a comfy Snuggie blanket, right? Like, I don’t, I don’t like it. But I, I’m also not thinking constantly about how much I hate it. Which, again, this is why I brought up Man’s Search for Meaning. In that book, right. Like, what he’s doing is he’s looking around, he’s like, wait, like, why, like, what, what I have to do here? What do I have? I’m, technically I believe, logotherapy. His point is that you, it doesn’t matter how many things are out of your control, the one thing that is in your control is your ability to assign meaning to things. And since you can assign meaning to things, the meanings that you assign to things can then influence your life and the way and, and how you feel. And I. it’s a hell of a book, helluva book. And I, again, I didn’t study logotherapy, although one of my RBT, like mentors, was like, as involved in logotherapy, as he was in RBT. But I never really studied it. But it’s, it’s something that’s been helpful for me lately. And I’ve had a lot of conversations with people. And I see, I see that we often get hung up on those things. I’m like, hate this. I hate this one thing, or like, I hate this idea. And then and then like, I don’t like it. But if I get hung up on that hatred of it, I don’t, I can’t actually move forward and move beyond the thing that I want to do. And for me, it’s been helpful to again, frame it as a game. So the very rarely do I have to play a game that I don’t like that. I don’t want to do that. No. Like, usually, I have to enjoy the game. paths aren’t always the case. There have been there have been games that I didn’t get. But I tried a few different times. And eventually I was like, oh, okay, okay. And like, I just started to see them differently. And then I was able to to appreciate them more. Like Monster Hunter Monster Hunter was one of the first times that I was like, I know, I studied that game more than I actually played it. And it was it was, it was a lot of fun. But also it took years and multiple versions of me trying the game and just be like, but I just kept seeing people like, Oh, no, this game is great. I was like, I’ll give it another shot. I’ll try this one. And then ehh. And I remember getting Monster Hunter world. And I don’t remember why. I don’t remember why I actually purchased it considering how much I hated all the others. But I

Lara Taylor 33:34
and then you tried to get everybody to play it.

Josué Cardona 33:37
I tried to get

Link Keller 33:37
sure did

Josué Cardona 33:38
everyone to play with. But it was it was it took me a long time. I can’t I don’t remember why I bought it. But I ended up once I it’s like I realized I didn’t understand it before. Right? Like it didn’t it didn’t make any sense to me. Or I get hung up on the things that I didn’t like about it. And then I found things that I did like about it and I was like okay, I want to do the same thing happened to me with Genshin impact recently, I started playing it and I was like, this is this is okay. And then I saw it as Actually, I thought, Oh, wait a minute. This is a multiplayer game. I’m gonna get into it so I can play with my friends. And then I started playing it more and learn that I had to get to the level up to level 16 before I could play with anybody, and adventure ranked 16 in the game, which is like an overall experience level. And that took a really long time. But my goal was to be able to play with friends. And by the time I got to playing with friends, which wasn’t really I had to play it solo and as I played it solo oh I really liked it and then I found out it’s not really a multiplayer game like you can play multiplayer but it’s really a for a single player game. But then I started understanding the systems and My friend actually started helping me with it by like answering questions and things like oh, no, like, I can help you get to 16 before we can even play together. And yeah, like I changed my perspective on what the game was and the things that I didn’t like about it. And I started focusing on the things that I that I did like about it are technically like the the things that I could control, or the things that you know, I had access to. And then I ended up liking it. And so I’ve been, again, playing that game recently. state of the world a whole bunch of stuff like it’s been it’s been, it’s been a metaphor that’s been helpful. For me,

Josué Cardona 35:11
yeah. Well, if it’s helpful for you, then use it.

Josué Cardona 35:43
yeah, no, no, I am.

Link Keller 35:46
That’s where that’s that’s what I feel.

Josué Cardona 35:49
Now, again, I think it’s been helpful for I’ve used it a lot with clients in the past, and it’s been very helpful, and it helps if they understand the games and an to an extent to use it in that particular framing. but yeah sorry, go ahead.

Link Keller 36:05
Yeah, I, I. I don’t think that capitalism can be called a game because it is not something that you can opt out of, in our case, right? games have an aspect of consent in them, that you are choosing to opt in you are choosing to engage with the game you are choosing to follow the rules that exist. We don’t really have that option. But let me let

Lara Taylor 36:38
I push back on that a little bit, I played dodgeball. I don’t know how many times in elementary school middle school high school,

Link Keller 36:44
okay, I, I hear what you’re saying. But I’m pretty sure like, if you threw a fucking fit, you could have gotten out of dodgeball

Lara Taylor 36:55
and failed my class.

Josué Cardona 36:59
I mean, again, going back to to Victor Frankl’s Man’s Search for Meaning, like the opening paragraph in the prologue is, I’m just gonna read it. Because I think I think it’s relevant. I wasn’t gonna bring this up, but I’ll bring it up. As long as you

Lara Taylor 37:18
don’t pull up a tab and break the thing.

Josué Cardona 37:20
I did. No promises. So in the, in the note, the version I have on Kindle is different than the version I have on Audible. Okay. Well, basically, at the beginning of the book, I believe, he says that one of the first things like basically the first question that Viktor Frankl would ask his his clients was, why don’t you die by suicide is basically the question that he that he, he asked them that’s like his opener. And then, based on his their responses to that he starts, he uses that question the way I asked people like, what’s your favorite hobby? What are you geeky about? And he and I, like, I start from there. And then I build, I build, I build up from there. And so he starts with that question, basically, talking about, okay, so these are the reasons why this is what is meaningful to you. This is, this is what’s important to you, this is why you This is why you you want to live, right. And so until let’s let’s build on that. So I again, I think it’s possible to opt out of a lot of things in different ways. And if we see things happen this way, like using using that that quote from the from the book, right, and then talking about something like, again, in this case, capitalism, the idea that we we don’t opt into it, yes, there are a lot of things in life that feel like we don’t opt into them. But like, I think his point is like, well, you kind of are like, there are a lot of things that we opt into just by being alive today in this moment in time in this context, and here. There are things that we we we there are lots of things that we cannot control, but I think he still tries to put it to that. If I’m butchering this, please, anybody. Any Viktor Frankl logo therapy experts out there, please

Lara Taylor 39:30
call Josué out.

Josué Cardona 39:31
Call me out. Yes. Immediately. Nobody, nobody. Nobody’s in the comments. No. Okay. Then I’ll keep going. So, again, yes. I understand exactly what you’re saying. Like, I feel like I I feel like I didn’t consent into capitalism, and I feel like it is something that I yes, I agree with that. But It’s also like, how, how do you look at it? If I don’t let that particular part of it? It’s like, Okay, well, okay, I’m here.

Link Keller 40:10
Yeah, if if we are going to go with capitalism as a game, and we have to learn the rules of this game, I would, again, referencing this book, I would call this an abusive game, which is described as a game that is deliberately designed to frustrate the player.

Josué Cardona 40:29
Yeah,

Link Keller 40:30
they must go right up to the edge of what the player will tolerate without pushing them into quitting. With what this means is an abusive game designed depends heavily on the player’s own conceptual background, what does the player think the game is trying to accomplish? What sort of thoughts does it trigger? In other words, the player of an abusive experience is willing to tolerate frustration and low level of moment to moment play, if that frustration is essential to construction of an interesting high level interpretive play space. So, we, we have systems that have some of the elements that we see in games, there’s there’s choice, variety, consequence, predictability, uncertainty, and satisfaction. Those are the six that he he’s using as elements of play. And so we, as humans, sort of already, like, inherently pick up on those aspects. So, anyways, it’s like when we are playing something, and we come up against something that doesn’t like feel right, which would be a lot of capitalism, is we see in a lot of games, that when people are playing games, they will come up with ways to get around those abusive experiences. So that would be people using handicaps in their in their game plays, that would be people referencing walkthroughs that would be house house rules, if you play games, you know? Which can backfire, right? The the go to is everybody hates monopoly, because it goes too long. But the reason it goes too long is everybody is using often using a house rule. And that house rule ends up stretching the game time out really far. But that’s, that’s if we’re gonna apply that to capitalism. That’s where we see people, you know, finding cheats and loopholes. And, you know, depending on players who already have capital, as a way to get more capital, and that sort of aspect. Or you can absolutely see the the, the generalization of it’s a game in that act, I agree totally in that way.

Josué Cardona 43:21
But and and from what you read, I mean, you talked about like, tolerating frustration, right? And so it’s such a big component of like, a CBT, to talk about frustration, tolerance, right? That if you if you increase your your frustration, tolerance, you can, like, that can be a huge barrier, right? Because you don’t like, I’m frustrated, so I don’t want to proceed. I don’t want to keep going. Like when you talk about an abusive game, what I’m thinking about is, is like, Dark Souls, right? Like, I don’t, I mean, for me when I try to, I wish I wish that I had the, I mean, technically, Monster Hunter is very similar to Dark Souls, in many ways. And, and I’m hoping that it does actually act as a as a stepping stone into that, but the, the if I go into, like, just very different, like, if you see Brandon walk into a dark souls, he’s like, whoo, Dark Souls. Yeah, let’s do it. And then Dark Souls, I’m like, I’m like grasping that controller like about to snap it in half. And I’m, like, nervous, and I don’t want to do it. And it’s just a very different. I don’t I don’t know. I don’t know. I use Brandon as an example. But like, I’ve seen many people talk about the same thing. I mean, it’s the same story I talked about. With Monster Hunter. It’s like, I tried a few times. didn’t like it didn’t get it. I don’t know why I finally just sat down. I was like, hmm, let me see. Let me try to let me try to understand that a little better. Let me see if I can get into it. i aspire to be better at souls games. I would very much like to. And only with that attitude will I think will I ever overcome the frustration that I get from actually doing it? I don’t know if I’ll ever beat Dark Souls. I don’t I don’t think I’m ever gonna beat capitalism. Right. But there are other goals right and stuff in between, hey,

Link Keller 45:29
you can win Dark Souls. I would submit that you can’t win capitalism.

Josué Cardona 45:38
Maybe

Lara Taylor 45:39
I feel like some people in the world are very few, are winning capitalism.

Josué Cardona 45:44
People. Yes. Some people, some people.

Lara Taylor 45:46
I could name them

Josué Cardona 45:47
Yeah.

Link Keller 45:48
Yeah. All 70 of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, a big part of Souls games. And more broadly is like that, that is a design elements that video games have to have to make choices about is what what kinds of rule sets are they going to use? And how are players expected to figure out those rule sets, or come with pre existing knowledge. There is certainly an element of like, Dark Souls 2 and blood borne and Dark Souls 3, all sort of relying on at least a little contextual knowledge from Dark Souls, and even that went into Demon Souls, because they rely on some similar rule sets. But the point of how the game is using those rule sets is because their design choices were to build this idea of mastery, that is the kind of player that they were expecting to engage with their game as players who are really motivated by feelings of mastery, and so that, you know, hitting up against a wall and failing, and frustration, and everything is part of that mastery experience. And so with that knowledge of what kind of player you are looking for, and what kind of game experience you are creating, you build them together, right? There are games that absolutely are not focused on the concept of mastery. Animal Crossing would be a good one, Animal Crossing does not care if you get super duper good at catching bugs. It’s just like, yeah, it’s exploration. And it’s building your own internal narratives, and its collection. Very different goals than the rule sets for a game like Dark Souls. So it’s also part of it is learning what kind of rule sets they are and then acclimating to them, but part of it is also recognizing what kind of gamer you are, and what motivates you to play. Because there are going to be games that fit that better than other games.

Josué Cardona 48:26
Yeah, I don’t. Yeah, I don’t I don’t know that. For me right now, a discussion about mastery within again, we’ve been talking about capitalism. But there are other other systems too. I was I listened to a podcast the other day, and I, I’m hoping I was I was googling it. I’m hoping that this is the one. I think the book is called the devil, you know, a black power Manifesto. And it’s talking about how, yeah, this is the one by Charles M Blow. And in the interview, he was talking about how listening to him he he seems to have a very good understanding of the US political system. And he was talking about how demographically how many, how many people have, like, how many Hispanic people, how many black people how many white people will be in the United States over the next, you know, 10-20 years, and how that’s going to shape the the political map in the country based on the number of people in each of those demographics, and where they’re going to be geographically. So what he’s proposing in this book is that black people move to the south and kind of congregate because their numbers are going to be smaller than other groups, and only by having more black people in particular states can they increase the chances of there being black senators in the future. Because if the the number of black people is spread out throughout the country the way it is now, the likelihood of there being black senators in the future will be very low.

Link Keller 50:13
there is a higher concentration of black people in the south than anywhere else in the US.

Josué Cardona 50:19
Yeah,

Lara Taylor 50:19
there’s just suppression.

Josué Cardona 50:22
Yes. But also, if you’re playing, if that’s the game that you’re playing, how do you continue to play that game?

Lara Taylor 50:29
lean into it

Josué Cardona 50:29
right. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. Like, okay, so we’re gonna lean into it, we’re going to do this, and we’re going to make sure that we can actually, these are the rules that you want to set up, fine. We’ll play those rules. There’s enough of us. And here’s what we can do. And here

Link Keller 50:41
I mean, that’s, that’s what gerrymandering is. Right? Is it is using a rule to choose who gets represented by who

Josué Cardona 50:54
right and that person. Right, that’s that affects congress, right. But overall numbers would would affect the Senate, because the Senate is chosen by the state. And that’s why he’s talking about the Senate and the senatorial map and not the congressional map. And then I mean, as a result, I mean, you could then start moving like, if there’s more black people in an area, then they can have more representation, like reduce the gerrymandering also. But in the context of that interview, he was talking about it in terms of the senatorial race, because it doesn’t matter what’s going on. Like, if you can at least have someone representing your interest, because the Senate is way more unfair, in a way because of the way that every state, regardless of it has 1 million or 30 million people.

Lara Taylor 51:40
Everybody’s got two

Josué Cardona 51:42
right Yeah. And then it only takes one more than the other side to make things happen, right. So there was, again, I was listening to him. And I was like, oh, like, he knows the rules. He understands. He sees all the pieces on the board. And this is what he’s, this is what he’s proposing. And I know, it’s a pretty cool strategy. Again, understanding the rules. At least that’s the way I’m framing it. That’s the way I heard it. When I when I heard him speaking. And there’s, there’s something, I think it’s more of a mindset thing that I’m really, that I’m really thinking about, right where it’s like, he was like, I could just stay like, I’d rather be like, he lived in New York. And it’s like, I’d rather live in New York, I like it here. But like my ultimate goals, and the things that I want to further and the people that I care about, and things that I think are important, would be better served. If I like it’s not impossible. And also like this is this is something that I could do. So I’m going to move down to Atlanta, he said that he moved. And then because of the way that we can create communities and strengthen those communities, and, you know, build things up by having more people in one particular area. Again, these are the rules that are currently established in the system. So how can we? How can we how can we play to win, basically, and, again, I don’t know if he would characterize what he’s doing in these terms. But it made sense to me when I saw it that way.

Lara Taylor 53:18
And then you sometimes you get situations where the rules are there, clearly, and the other side ignores the rules. I’m thinking about how, with the supreme court with Amy Coney Barrett Supreme Court appointment, and the democrats decided to not show up, when it was time to do the, the judicial with the their committees vote. And there has to be at least two, to have a quorum to be able to have the vote. And the republicans decided to hold the vote anyway, even though it’s against the rules. And then it happened,

Josué Cardona 54:06
But this This, to me is like, to me, this is like the using Breath of the Wild as an example. This is when like, somebody moves too quickly, and like and just like move through a wall. It’s like, Well, technically,

Lara Taylor 54:19
it’s a glitch

Josué Cardona 54:19
the game allows, like the game allows it right? Like, like we can we can say like, Oh, that’s not a that’s not a rule. But like, if it’s allowed, like if it happened, there was no consequence. And those are the rules are playing by Right. I mean, as much as it sucks. I didn’t know you switched the rules on me

Lara Taylor 54:34
we’re playing Assassin’s Creed and you fall through the floor and just keep falling and falling and falling. Or I’m playing anthem, and I just keep dying and dying.

Josué Cardona 54:48
I saw somebody beat Link to the Past. It’s like, it’s like three minutes. It takes if you do, I saw it the other day. Apparently it works on the version that’s on switch with like Oh, I like that that has been in the game for the game. And what 96? 95? No, it’s certainly not 94 I don’t know, whenever, whenever link to the past came out. I played that game a million times. And I’ve never, I don’t know, you could do that. But you can. They didn’t even patch it out. So I mean, like, I get it, I understand in life, like, I could get hung up on the idea that they cheated, or I can be like, Oh, I didn’t know we could do that.

Lara Taylor 55:34
It’s a glitch in the system. Okay.

Josué Cardona 55:35
Like, it’s not exactly, exactly. That’s a question. Okay, then, then. Then. I guess that’s an exploit that we can exploit.

Lara Taylor 55:45
Loot cave?

Josué Cardona 55:47
No. Now whether, you know, whether some people are are more able to exploit than not. And hypocrisy and blah, blah, blah, all that stuff. Um, but it just, I think I think it goes to that same idea, right. It’s the monopoly thing, right? It’s like, those aren’t the rules. And yet 90% of the time that I’ve played Monopoly, I people will not auction off something that nobody wants to buy.

Lara Taylor 56:16
This is why I love playing board games on computer on on the computer. Because are there it gives you the rules, the clear rules. Like if you played Terra mystica on on the computer, you would understand all the rules.

Josué Cardona 56:34
on the computer, it wouldn’t let me do things that I’m not allowed to do. It still wouldn’t.

Lara Taylor 56:39
wouldn’t tell you that you could do things. Yeah,

Josué Cardona 56:42
but but the point taken

Link Keller 56:44
makes it a little easier to trial and error, basically. Yep.

Josué Cardona 56:49
How far can I go? Can with it? No. Okay. That the board, I can move. I rolled one die, but I can move it also the spaces.

Lara Taylor 56:58
It also depends on how you’re playing it. Because if you’re playing in like, tabletop simulator or something like those are, you can literally move pieces anywhere. Because it’s just it’s a simulation. It’s not constrained, like buying. I think I just bought wingspan on my switch. So that will give me specific parameters. It’s on rails.

Josué Cardona 57:22
Yeah, basically, I had a Game Genie, add a game shark. Oh, I like easy mode. Love it. I’ll pay extra for easy mode. But I was talking to somebody about that the other day. I was like, I’ll pay for an XP boost. Yeah, why not? Give me easy mode. And in life, I would like easy mode, but because of for multiple reasons. I was not born on the easiest tier. Not on the hardest tier.

Lara Taylor 57:53
you’re on normal mode

Josué Cardona 57:54
But I’m definitely I there there are multiple levels in life and in multiple aspects of life. And in some of them. I’m, I’m, I’m doing. You know, like I’m okay. But I’ve never been on easy mode. And

Lara Taylor 58:15
sometimes on hard mode.

Josué Cardona 58:16
Yeah. Sometimes I’m really hard mode.

Lara Taylor 58:19
Yeah, maybe not on nightmare mode. But

Link Keller 58:22
uhh no, living under capitalism feels like living in nightmare mode.

Josué Cardona 58:30
When, when in 2017 mother nature glitched and threw me into they had a special limited time event where they turned off all of the all of the power

Lara Taylor 58:44
all the lights.

Josué Cardona 58:45
Yeah, yeah. There was literally nothing

Lara Taylor 58:48
went into dark mode

Josué Cardona 58:49
when it went to. Yeah, that was it the post apocalyptic seasonal event that everyone was thrust into? Yeah. That was nightmare mode. I mean, yeah. Even even there. There were some people who I remember the house next to mine. Our neighbors were they had a like an industrial generator that like you wouldn’t have a house you would have it for like a business. But they install it long time ago because they could and they had central air. And it was like, their experience was very different. Than

Lara Taylor 59:27
they hacked the system

Josué Cardona 59:28
than mine. Yeah. Yeah. They were they were definitely on on easy mode. At that point. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So anyway, any final thoughts on this? Thank you, thank you for engaging on my my conversation on on I don’t know what the hell I was. I it going I’m in multiple different directions it’s in

Link Keller 59:53
my closing thought is going to be a call to continue into more different directions. YouTube, h bomber guy, he’s one of my favorite YouTube people. And he has a video called speed running is awesome. And here’s why we spent all this time talking about the rules of games. And speed running is all about playing games as fast as possible. Now some of those are without going against any of the intended rule sets. Some of them are go hog wild, if you can find a shortcut, if you can find a cheat, if you can find a way to break it in a way that benefits you doing it faster, like the Zelda one, then do it. And so this video essay, he talks about the speedrunning community, and it’s very interesting, and I recommend that video and many others of his videos, but what I want to have you two think about moving forward if we’re going to talk about the systems that we exist in, and how framing them as games can be beneficial to us better understanding them. How does the concept of speed running work in there? What What can we figure out about our systems so well, that we can break the systems?

Josué Cardona 1:01:26
But it’s not always speed running isn’t always about breaking the system? I mean,

Link Keller 1:01:31
no. there are different categories

Josué Cardona 1:01:36
Yeah, when you mentioned Animal Crossing, you were like, Well, you can’t really like, you know, like, there’s no way to, like the game doesn’t care. You know, if you’re good at catching bugs, that is true.

Lara Taylor 1:01:47
but people do time travel back and forth.

Josué Cardona 1:01:49
You can care, right? And you can set and you can say oh no, I am going to, I want to max out my inventory, or I want to like I want and I’m doing that right now, like I have, I am looking forward to the day when I go to the museum. And I have so much I’m just going to spend hours just going back and forth and emptying out all the fossils that I’ve been collecting, having gone to him

Lara Taylor 1:02:12
i’ve got all the fossils in the museum

Josué Cardona 1:02:14
feel like I haven’t done it right. I’m just collecting fossils in my house like crazy, and I’m looking forward to in the game doesn’t tell me to do this. But I decided a long time ago that I want to, there’s going to be a day that I’m going to need this in my life, I’m going to need this moment where I’m just gonna keep going. I’m just gonna go. I’m just gonna, just, every single fossil, I’m just gonna have that stupid conversation over and over and over again. I’m just gonna give them all my fossils until and I think that they I’ll unlock them. All right, like, I’ll have completed my Museum, because I but I’m gonna go in there with like, 1000 fossils, right, or however many I can do. And that’s a thing that I established for myself. Yeah, yeah. And I think I think I don’t know if Viktor Frankl would agree. But I think that’s what the book is about, right? It’s like, Okay, this sucks. Game fucking sucks. But the people who within it, were able to, in this case, survive and get to the other end and not be like broken. Were the people who were able to establish something, right to create some sort of that you create your own goal, you create your own world within this other thing. So like, you can have a game and then you’re like, okay, right. And yeah, I mean, I think I think it’s a that’s why I gave the Breath of the Wild example at the beginning. Because I can’t play Breath of the wall that way. I’ve never, I mean, maybe I could, but I’ve never I’ve never. I’ve never attempted it. That’s not how I play the game. But there are other games that I kind of do. Like, I just give an animal crossing example. Right? There are other games of the things that I do. It’s, it’s like, right now I’m playing genshin impact and it is very much like Breath of the Wild. And I don’t know, there’s like a million different things to do. And I’m only doing them in a particular way. There was a there was a character at the beginning that everyone told me it’s garbage. So worst character in the game. I was like, I don’t care. I like Amber. I’m gonna play as Amber, I’m gonna make a good version of that character. I gave up on that at some point because she was horrible. She Yeah, she is. It’s unfair what they’re doing to that character. But I can choose that, right? There’s like, there’s like 28 characters in that game. And I can have any combination I wanted. There’s like so many possibilities. And I can play the game however I want. And every time I say there’s different videos that each of them are like, oh, here’s like, you can take this character who’s a healer, but you know, like, here’s the DPS builder. Here’s another but like, Oh, and if you want do you want to combine these two characters, like go all in with one element? Like there’s all these things? I’m like, okay, I want to play the game this particular way. And once I started doing that, this is this is this is this feels right? I like I like where this is going. Once I decided like no, this is the character that I’m going to main. I’m going to build Everything else around this character, I had some direction that the game didn’t provide me. And I’m having a very unique experience from what other people are having. And there’s an aspect of this game too, which is I has gatcha mechanics. So there is a random element to it. Also, where like I play, but Gian and Gian is has like completely different characters, that it has characters that I do not have. And even within things that are random, there are all these rolls, like a PD rolls and things like this was like, if you’re keeping track of how many times you’ve rolled, you can almost guarantee the outcome that you want, if you do things in a particular way, it’s gonna take a while you can build that up. But you can actually do that to your advantage, or you don’t have to play that way at all. And, and yeah, and so I think speedrunning life, right is, is it’s exactly it’s like this situation. It’s like being at work. It’s like having a really shitty job. And then just like, No, no, but I’m going to do it with music on and I’m going to, you know, like, I’m going to do it to a beat, you know, and like this monotonous, stupid job, you know? And then one day, you’re like, No, I’m gonna beat my record, you know, of something like you can create all these things for yourself. I mean, and a lot of these aspects are, are discussed in reality is broken. Right, right. Like, they’re all these things in games, that if you brought them into real life, that or you brought them into the workplace into school, we we would be able to the people would be more engaged, they would be they, they would enjoy it more, they wouldn’t be as disconnected blah, blah. But we can do that again, go back to your Frankl that is you can do a lot of that on your on your own. Yes, it’s hard. It’s really hard. Especially it’s, it’s so hard. It’s so hard. Um, and, and again, I think I think the hardest part is getting past. There. I think there are some, there’s a frustration, tolerance part of it. There’s the acceptance part of it. This is like one of the things that Albert Ellis like always gets called an asshole for writing those training videos. Because what is it like the girl talking about, like her sister died? And he’s like, yeah

Lara Taylor 1:07:13
that happens.

Josué Cardona 1:07:15
Yeah, it happened. So like what you can, you can be super pissed about it right now. Like, be sad, but like, don’t let that sadness, like, and that’s the thing. That’s why I like the way that RBT frames things. It’s like, there’s two versions of every emotion, right? There’s the one that sucks. And then there’s the one that like, a sucks and takes you over and stops you from proceeding and living your life and, and accomplishing things and doing things like that. Is like it’s not Don’t be sad. It’s Don’t be sad. Don’t be so sad that it that it consumes you. Yeah,

Link Keller 1:07:54
don’t be only sad. get sad Plus, upgrade, you deserve it.

Lara Taylor 1:08:00
new game, new game plus

Josué Cardona 1:08:02
Yeah, you can still be sad. You can mean one element, just you know, there’s ways to to, you know, adjust your, your gear and your stats so that it doesn’t actually work to your detriment. So like, you can use them to move forward. did i answer your question on speed running?

Link Keller 1:08:24
I just something to ponder. I don’t think there is an answer. It’s just something to think about.

Josué Cardona 1:08:30
ways to do it. Yeah.

Link Keller 1:08:32
Think of the ways that we engage with systems systems that have explicit rules that shaped them, and then also implicit rules in how we engage with them. And that can apply to all sorts of systems.

Josué Cardona 1:08:49
Yep. I like it. Lara, closing words, no, you’re done. You’re good.

Lara Taylor 1:08:57
I’m good. I enjoyed I enjoyed the capitalism debate.

Josué Cardona 1:09:01
is that what we did? did it work? I dunno if it worked. anyway

Lara Taylor 1:09:05
It works. It works. Okay.

Link Keller 1:09:07
if Capitalism is a game. It really fucking sucks. And we need to change a lot of the rules to get it fair. that’s all I’m saying s’all I’m saying we got to tweak some of these rules and need some iteration on it’s a game development, you know?

Josué Cardona 1:09:23
Yeah. Yeah. I feel more comfortable with the idea that like, capitalism is the board, right? And like it, like, it creates all of these horrible abuse. constraints. to like, stop. Yeah, that’s specific. I didn’t even bring up GameStop and,

Lara Taylor 1:09:44
and how they hacked the system, even though it’s part of the rules.

Josué Cardona 1:09:48
Exactly. They’re like we follow the rules.

Link Keller 1:09:50
I dunno if you noticed, They change those rules. Real quick.

Josué Cardona 1:09:55
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I look forward to the next So the next time that it happens, and you keep moving it they got they patched it right they patched the game because someone exploited it.

Lara Taylor 1:10:08
They got rid of that Loot Crate or that loot cave

Link Keller 1:10:08
because the wrong people were cheating. certain people are allowed to cheat. And cheat in that way but then once other people is somebody found a guide and started using the guide and they’re like, Whoa, you’re not allowed to read that how to I’m deleting that. Taking, taking right off that page.

Lara Taylor 1:10:34
The loot cave Yeah,

Link Keller 1:10:36
they swiped they swipe to the game shark. That’s what they did.

Josué Cardona 1:10:40
Loot cave is still in is now in destiny 2, it’s in the cosmodrome. It’s still it’s there.

Lara Taylor 1:10:45
But it doesn’t do the loot thing, right?

Josué Cardona 1:10:47
No, but it still has like the memorial. The thing?

Lara Taylor 1:10:50
I need to pick up the game again.

Josué Cardona 1:10:52
Yeah, lemme know. All right. Thank you for joining us for this episode of GT radio. Please engage with our if you want to engage with our content, you can come to forum that Geek therapy.com where you can comment and discuss all the contents on the Geek Therapy network. It’s also the home of the Geek Therapy Library. Remember, we have the therapeutic and applied Geeking gaming summit coming up in April, presented by Geek Therapy and the bodhana group. For more information on that and all of our community spaces and how to reach us. Check the show notes. All the links are there. Thank you so much for listening. remember to geek out and do good, we’ll be back next week.

Link Keller 1:11:35
mmm Bye!

Transcribed by https://otter.ai

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