Canceled

GeekTherapy · February 27, 2023, 11:45pm

Originally published at: https://geektherapy.org/canceled/

Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed

#344: The crew talks about shows canceled too soon (or too late), the interplay of expectations, and the emotional impact of not getting a story conclusion.

Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed

Podcast: Play in new window | Download | Embed

Transcript

Josué Cardona 0:11
Welcome to GT radio on the Geek Therapy network, here at Geek Therapy we believe the best way to understand each other and ourselves is through the media we care about. My name is Josué Cardona. And I’m joined by Marc Cuiriz.

Marc Cuiriz 0:21
Hello,

Josué Cardona 0:22
Link Keller.

Link Keller 0:23
Hi.

Josué Cardona 0:25
And Lara, I love clam-o-naise Taylor.

Lara Taylor 0:31
clam-o-naise. I will not eat the clam-o-naise But I did get the Cards Against Humanity pack for Hanukkah and had to fish it out of a jar of clam-o-naise.

Josué Cardona 0:47
Can confirm. And that’s why you were canceled. And so now today we’re talking about canceled shows,

Lara Taylor 0:54
cancelled shows cancelled shows

Josué Cardona 0:56
why Lara?

Lara Taylor 0:57
Well, I mean, I think a lot of shows have been cancelled in the fairly recent past. And I just saw an article quoting like the head of Netflix saying they’ve never canceled a successful show.

Link Keller 1:13
booo

Lara Taylor 1:13
And I kind of don’t, like their definition of success is probably way different than most people that enjoy the shows that got canceled. But I don’t know, we’ve talked before about, like, shows that we enjoy ending. And I think we touched on cancellation there too. But mostly it was like, the story gets to come to like this beautiful end. And you get to imagine what the characters are doing and they in like the epilogue of their lives. But at Thanksgiving, my niece’s boyfriend suggested I watch the Netflix show 1899. And I started watching like one episode. And then I heard it got canceled. I stopped watching it. I didn’t wanna get disappointed. I didn’t want to get fall in love with the story and then have it be like just this constant cliffhanger. And I think there’s, I don’t know, some stuff to dig into there. Like, I know people who with books will not read a series until the series is over. Because you never know you could end up in love with the Song of Ice and Fire and still waiting for the last two books. Never gonna happen. So I don’t know. I don’t know. I just It’s this feeling of I don’t want to get attached to something that’s going to be ripped away from me in a way. That’s not that doesn’t feel good. I don’t know. What do y’all think about canceled shows?

Link Keller 3:01
I mean, depending on the show? bad?

Lara Taylor 3:05
Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Link Keller 3:08
I I made a list of canceled shows that I was disappointed that they got canceled and then had a real moment to myself realizing how many of them had queer main characters or queer storylines, and then getting really mad about that.

Lara Taylor 3:30
I agree. Almost every show now almost every show, but like there are at least three Shows that Kayla has, like recommended to me and told me you need to watch this. And I started watching and then it got canceled leaving some very serious cliffhangers at the end. So it doesn’t feel good. Like, I don’t know humans like a beginning middle and an end. And a lot of sometimes you get the beginning in the middle but a lot of these shows only get a beginning or sometimes not even that like discovery, Warner Brothers canceling movies that were completely made and not put on their on their streaming services. I’m talking about Batgirl. So yeah, I don’t know. The queer character thing is is also I think important, because representation. There’s more now but we need even more than the more that we have.

Link Keller 4:40
Yeah. Okay, I’m going to talk about Buffy adjacent things, but I don’t want to talk about Joss Whedon shows so I’m just putting that one out there. Last year, there were two shows about vampires featuring female main characters, queer storylines. First kiss on Netflix,

Lara Taylor 5:06
one of the ones Kayla suggested to me,

Link Keller 5:09
which, you know, it wasn’t amazing. But it

Lara Taylor 5:12
it was a good fun

Link Keller 5:12
felt the way that Buffy felt along the more dramatic romantic side of Buffy that I enjoyed when I was younger. And then the other show is called Astrid and Lilly save the world. And that was a Syfy show. And that was on like the other side of the like silly campy monster of the week side of Buffy. And I was so stoked that I was like, Oh my gosh, we’re getting two shows that are like scratching that Buffy itch. I’m loving it. The characters are fun and funny and cute and first kiss, but the main characters are both queer in Astrid and Lilly. Lilly is queer, and is just really great. Had a really fun time, both of those cancelled and I was so disappointed because I was like, I want that kind of like, more angled towards younger audiences, but still being like, fantasy vampire stuff. Like I like I like that. I liked that when I was younger. I wish that there was more stuff like that. And I really thought we were getting somewhere with it. And then they both got cancelled. I was like, wow, that. That sucks. I’m really disappointed. Yeah, that was that was a real bummer for me.

Lara Taylor 6:29
Yeah, there was another show that Kayla suggested to me warrior nun, I watched a couple episodes and then found out that was also cancelled. And that has more than one season. I didn’t even get to any queer stuff. Because I’m assuming there’s queer stuff because if Kayla is sending me recommendations. It’s gonna have queer storylines. And I thought it was cool. But again, I think I’ll finish a show. If it gets cancelled early if I’m far enough into it. But if I’m only an episode or two, and I really don’t want to go through that disappointment,

Link Keller 7:01
warrior nun was was okay, in that it did like get an ending, they left it open. So it’s like we could like there’s more story to tell. But like, this is a satisfying conclusion to the main story arc, we have setup, which was good. And I do appreciate when you can at least get that much. But then, like other shows, don’t don’t get any like cliffhanger like unresolved main setup stuff is like, that’s so disappointing is you get invested in the story. And then it’s just over and it’s like, Well, I gotta I gotta hope that someone’s writing good fanfiction out there. Or, I guess I’ll go write my own like, Oh, man. It’s like, I want to know, I want to know the story. These stories matter to me. I want to I want to hear it. I want to see it

Lara Taylor 7:48
well, and the way that they do, especially if we’re talking about Netflix shows getting cancelled the way that they’re done now is to I know we don’t want to talk too much about Joss Whedon shows but angel had enough time when it was canceled to try to scramble for something that might seem like an ending. But these shows they put out a whole season and if the wrong number of people watch it, it’s just gone.

Link Keller 8:13
Yeah, I think I think Sense8 is a good example of that, where it’s like, they absolutely should have had more seasons, but then it’s like, no, you’re getting axed, and they were like, Okay, well, let us try and finish up this story in a satisfying way. At least.

Lara Taylor 8:28
Got a movie. Yeah

Link Keller 8:32
Yeah, I’m I’m pretty bummed that raised by wolves got canceled because I was enjoying that meaty sci fi.

Lara Taylor 8:43
Yeah. And I was thinking about how one day the time was canceled, and people rallied and got it to get picked up by I can’t remember which one of the like, streaming like services that no one’s ever heard of it. Oh, it was on my TV at one point. They got renewed for a season on this smaller streaming service. And got one episode because COVID hit and it was the animated episode, which was really good. Or maybe it wasn’t, it was maybe three episodes. But whatever it it was good that it came back. People rallied we people were excited and then it fizzled out. And that was really sad.

Link Keller 9:32
We can maybe get into it more later but I do have a couple of examples of shows that got canceled and did end up coming back and I don’t know if I’m happy about it

Lara Taylor 9:44
mmhmm mmhmm

Link Keller 9:47
Yeah, no Netflix. I feel like Netflix is once they made their big transition to creating their own content. I feel like they’ve been really mean about canceling shows like you Get one season you get two seasons of his well received but like more than that, no, absolutely not. I’m thinking the OA got two seasons. I really liked that glow glow got a third season and then a got canceled because of COVID and they couldn’t figure out how to film contact sports in a safe way which I understand but it is a little disappointing. Lady dynamite I think that was on Netflix. I really liked that, that got canceled.

Lara Taylor 10:38
Someone suggested I watch the bastard son and the devil himself leading up to CASTT gamer starting up kids on brooms again, very like witchy vibe show and it only got one season. It did not get picked up for another season. So again, that one maybe I’ll watch it. I don’t know. I will have to ask if it kind of ended in a decent way.

Link Keller 11:04
Yeah, we didn’t end up talking about it during the spooky season. But the Midnight Club was by the same people as a Haunting of Hill

Lara Taylor 11:21
hill house and bly manor

Link Keller 11:22
manor house and midnight mass. And those were all single season stories

Lara Taylor 11:28
meant to be

Link Keller 11:29
meant to be that way. And Midnight Club really switched it up where it was like it was a season but they left a lot of stuff unsaid, undone. Not a lot of good conclusion there. And I really thought that the showrunner had like at that point earned from Netflix a little bit of trust in being able to continue and keeping people interested and watching and they were like, No, you only get the one sees you’re only allowed one seasons. I was I was pretty disappointed about that one. Mostly because it was a story about terminally ill kids and not enough of the kids died. Sounds terrible to say. But in the storytelling. I felt like it was really important that they did actually die. But nope, no,

Lara Taylor 12:16
no, you can imagine them either having a perfect life after maybe they they ended up I don’t know, one of them was misdiagnosed? I think. so. Or you can imagine their horrible deaths. I don’t know. Um, yeah, that one did like it wrapped up the main story of the like, the house or whatever, but also left a lot of other things unsaid and undone. Yeah. Which with the other shows in that like, I guess series of shows. Yeah, most things left it feeling like tied up with a little bow. A very creepy, sad bow. But a bow

Link Keller 13:06
Well, I mean in Bly Manor like they did like a fast forward so you got to see like later on. The way that Midnight Mass and ended was like very much like this is the end of this story.

Lara Taylor 13:18
but it’s hopeful for the future. Yeah

Link Keller 13:21
but Midnight Club is like they solved a part of the mystery. And then you never get to find out any of the other pieces of the mystery you don’t get to find out like the the stuff that they teased at the very end about characters. You don’t get to see how these tragic, terminally ill’s children’s stories and is is I was pretty disappointed that that got cancelled. I thought for sure. It’s like, oh, people are gonna love this. I can’t wait to see what happens. It’s like no, you’ll never know.

Lara Taylor 13:53
One of the things that I loved about that show is though, that there was the thing where I can’t remember the kid’s name, he would tell the story and be like you have to live till next time to hear the ending. And like yeah, you get left hanging if you don’t come back for more and so maybe that’s their way of like you got gotta wait till next time and then it’s just never gonna come.

Link Keller 14:17
We the audience died. So we’ll never hear the end of the story.

Lara Taylor 14:22
Yep,

Link Keller 14:24
ooOOooOo.

Lara Taylor 14:25
Yep.

Josué Cardona 14:29
So I’m hearing you talk about kind of like this attachment to a show that is already there. Then it’s taken away from you. Without you know,

Link Keller 14:42
or avoiding investment in a story at all because you know, it’s already been killed like I’ve been recommended 1899 by several people at this point, and I have not watched it. Because like I don’t want to get invested. It’s just gonna be disappointment.

Josué Cardona 14:58
Right. So So, so exactly So if I’m using this as an analogy for other things, I’m curious in your lives, like, for example, if you met somebody, do you go in thinking like, oh, we’ll never date I’ll never get married, or we’ll get never be best friends. So I’m not gonna bother. Or, you know,

Link Keller 15:21
I feel like

Josué Cardona 15:21
there’s other experiences too, right? It’s like, I’m gonna start this job. And if I’m not going to retire from it, why even start? No, these are very different things, right? Yeah, these are feelings that we, we can feel that way about multiple things. So I’m curious how that’s different.

Link Keller 15:36
I can see how like the analogy works. But I feel like my expectations for media storytelling is very different than my expectations for my lived experience on this mortal plane. I’ve talked about this on many episodes of this podcast, but real life is not narratively structured, we don’t get good storytelling in our lives, we get a lot of chaos. And we try and make good stories out of what we get. Which can be really fun, like, there is definitely something positive in that. Making a good life story out of chaos. But when you get a story crafted for you that hundreds of people have put 1000s of hours into crafting every little detail, the writing, the lighting, the sound design, the costumes, the setting, like every little piece has been put together to create this story. And then you don’t you don’t get it like that, that is more disappointing to me than the disappointment of making friends with somebody and then they just disappear and you never get a satisfying conclusion to your relationship.

Lara Taylor 16:49
And that doesn’t mean I don’t ever watch a show that has ended or gets canceled. It just depends on if they if I if I hear from other people that it has wrapped up in a way that kind of feels good. I started watching sense8, I think after it had been canceled. But I at that point, I knew they were going to do a movie. So I was able to get through that. I’m not the kind of person that I don’t think I don’t have that kind of avoidant attachment to things in my real life. I do like to meet new people and spend time with them. And it’s not this all in or nothing at all kind of experience. But maybe I get a little more invested in my stories than I do the people in my lives. In my life. I don’t know. Ah, I have probably spent more like I just told you guys, I spent all weekend playing The Last of Us and I’ve been watching the show. And I spent more time with that game this weekend than I spent with any of my friends or my wife. So and it’s that like kind of one way relationship like yes, I mean, parasocial relationships are real but also like, it’s all me projecting onto the, onto the characters onto the show and relating to those things and wanting good things for these characters or wanting bad things for some of them. And I don’t know I just want to I want to be able to see it’s also why I have a hard time saying goodbye when a show ends in a in a like nice little wrap up at the end. I want to know what happens I want to still be a part of their lives. And that’s why fanfic is great. But it just feels a little different when it’s like when you’re expecting to lose someone maybe and when someone is ripped away from you. It feels a little different. Sucks either way, but it’s different.

Marc Cuiriz 19:03
Yeah, I think when it comes to me, the reason why I haven’t watched a whole lot of TV especially like, in like recent times, I mean, I’m starting to get kind of get back into it. But I think a lot of it is is that like fear of like I’m gonna get I’m gonna watch a show, I’m gonna get very invested in it, and then all of a sudden, I’m gonna find out it’s been cancelled, and it doesn’t give a satisfying conclusion. And I think that kind of comes from this one show that I did watch and it got canceled after its third season. And the thing was, was that I the person that created the show, I followed them on YouTube I don’t I don’t know if you guys remember a channel called balloon shop from way back in the day, but one of the people that was on that shows name was Olan Rogers and then he went off and started doing his own thing. He made this thing on YouTube, he would tell stories. And he’s he’s a great storyteller. And so by watching his videos, I would watch his updates. And I watched his journey from creating the show, pitching it to TV, you know, to different companies, and then getting picked up, and then having it be on TV for two like for three seasons, and then a merger happens and a show gets cut, and seeing the devastation through it. So I’ve watched the show, evolve, and then watching it. And the thing was, is that I never even got to watch the third season. And then I got so upset at the fact that it was canceled. I never went and watched the third season, because I didn’t because I was already so invested in the show. And knowing that how he left off the third season, and knowing that it was never really going to continue is just so devastating. I was like, damn, this sucks. And I got really invested in the show. And so now it’s like, do I watch the show? Do I not watch the show because I don’t want to get involved. And then all of a sudden, it’s Sorry, no more. But I know now like, like I said, I’m starting to slowly kind of inch my way back into TV. And shows in general. I’m like going back and watching shows that I know have already concluded like Brooklyn nine-nine was one of those shows. And now I’m just kind of going through like I just started to watch things. And now I’m getting interested in watching shows that are being new like like white lotus, I was telling you guys earlier that I started watching that I know that has a second season, I’d want to start watching The Last of Us and things like that. But I think for me like having that personal connection to a show or at least to me, it was a personal connection of watching a show from its conception to its premiere to its inevitable cancellation was just kinda a little little too much in the feels.

Josué Cardona 22:03
What Why were you so attached to it, or, or to the potential culmination,

Marc Cuiriz 22:10
I think it’s just because like I, I felt connected to this particular creator, like I enjoyed his stories, I enjoyed his channel, I enjoyed his content, and to see it now being in and then to see his personality transition to TV. And now it’s being shared and being shown to, you know, a much bigger audience than that on YouTube, it was really cool to see that to see this person that I’ve watched since they were in college making, you know, random YouTube videos about drinking the last Coke, to having his own show was was was just something cool to see and be like, Hey, I was a part of the journey. I was there from its conception. And now here I am seeing it come to fruition. And then to learn that. And then I have him post a video saying like, it’s it sucks, but it’s it’s canceled, there’s going to be no more final space is you know, it’s one of those things where it’s it’s heartbreaking. You feel heartbroken just as much as he does. And that’s his show, but to be there from the beginnings of the journey. You know, you’re you’re a part of it, you’re a part of the history for it. And it’s it’s a cool thing to, to me, it was a cool thing to be a part of. But at the same time, it’s like, Damn, that really sucks. And for me, I was like, Well, I don’t want to get invested in another show like that. And then only to find out Sorry, no more.

Josué Cardona 23:43
So So do you wish you wouldn’t have been along for that ride?

Marc Cuiriz 23:47
I don’t think necessarily that I don’t. I don’t wish that I wasn’t along for the ride. I just wish that there could have been a way for the show to continue.

Josué Cardona 23:59
You wanted more? You’re greedy.

Marc Cuiriz 24:00
Yes. I’m being greedy. You want to put it that way? You’re absolutely right.

Josué Cardona 24:06
Because Because Right. Like I know, we’re talking about shows because of course, because Media Matters. And this is the right this is the best way to understand each other how we care about these things. But like some of them, like you just described an entire journey. It’s like, I knew this person. I was connected to them. Like I came along for this ride. And it was sad when it was over. And I never want to feel that sadness again. But I hear everything I hear you saying is like super positive. It’s like, oh, man, like that was such a fun ride. It sucks that it’s over. Right. But then But then, but I hear you like, I don’t ever want to go through that breakup again.

Marc Cuiriz 24:41
Yeah, and I think for me, like I think after that show was done for a while I carried that with me. And especially last year, I started giving TV more and more of a chance of like, okay, well let me at least dabble back into things that I know have already been completed or shows that I know that already have a satisfying enough of an end. That like, okay, I can watch this, I’m not going to kind of run into that potential again. And now going into this year, especially, you know, me and my wife, like when this is our time, like we watch TV together, and we alternate between the shows. Now, I’m willing to kind of go back into those chances of like, let me watch this brand new show that’s coming out. And I just hope it continues, I hope it doesn’t get cancelled.

Lara Taylor 25:35
It’s interesting, because like, if we’re talking and comparing, like relationships to these shows, and attachment to these shows, and these characters, with our attachments, and relationships with people, it brings me back to something I talked to clients about all the time, because I talked to a lot of people about breakups and working to help them through breakups. And it’s like, a relationship you get into has only two outcomes. Ultimately, you’re either in the relationship forever, or you’re not. And either way is fine. Like it, it depends, like, it all depends on what you need for you, and what they need for them. But this idea of, I don’t think any of my relationships were a waste of time, the ones before my wife, but I wouldn’t want to jump into a relationship, knowing this is my choice. I don’t want to jump into a relationship knowing we’re gonna break up in two years. I don’t want to do that. So if I jump

Josué Cardona 26:37
what if it’s best two years of your life?

Lara Taylor 26:40
peaking at 39? I don’t think so. Like, I would want to know that. There were better possibility of better times ahead than that.

Josué Cardona 26:54
Both of those things can be true, though, right?

Lara Taylor 26:55
Yeah. And other people are willing to get into a relationship that they know has a has an expiration date. And that’s, that’s cool for them. But when I go, when I watch a show, like I will watch a brand new show and just cross my fingers that it’s gonna get renewed for another season and two, three, until whenever the story has run its course. But with a show that, like I know has already been canceled and doesn’t have like a good ending. It’s like, well, maybe I’ll watch it. Maybe I won’t, but I probably won’t be as motivated to watch it. Since there’s so many things out there watch.

Link Keller 27:34
Yeah, I’m thinking like, in the 20 teens, or early 20 teens, like on my list, there are several shows that I watched after I knew that they had already been cancelled. So I think definitely part of it is like, where I am in my life currently and also my relationship with media, currently. it has made me like what less willing to invest in stuff. Like, my examples are Better Off Ted had two seasons. That was very funny. I started watching it after it was already canceled.

Josué Cardona 28:14
I love that show

Link Keller 28:15
It’s so funny. It’s still it’s still

Josué Cardona 28:17
one of my favorite comedies

Link Keller 28:18
like comedies often do not age well. They are very much products of their time. But Better Off Ted is still very funny. Pushing Daisies is another one. That was great. And Brian Fuller’s show before pushing daisies, wonder Falls was also really promising and they only aired four episodes, out of order, of the first season. It did get like a DVD release of the first season, but it got canceled before it even finished airing that first season, which was kind of a bummer. Freaks and Geeks I watched long after it had gotten canceled. Party down that was another like lots of comedies where it’s like, in the 2012 2013 time was like I was watching a lot of these shows comedy shows as like I knew they were already canceled, but I was in the space where it’s like I want to check this out. I want to see it. But it’s like now it’s like there’s 30-40 shows going at any time where it’s like I’m interested I would watch that plus a shit ton of movies and video games and comics and books and so on. Like I’m now I’m like oh I don’t know if I can like emotionally invest in something that I know is like not going to have a satisfying ending I’m going to be disappointed that it’s canceled and that there’s not another episode to play immediately after finishing this one. Definitely like the self is reflected in in the way that I engage with the media, now currently.

Josué Cardona 29:49
Yeah, I think we’ve all said the words expectations. Right. I think that’s that’s such a big part of it. Like yeah, when I saw Freaks and Geeks I wasn’t watching it on TV, right like I saw it on DVD because All of those actors are doing other stuff now. And I was like, how’s this? How’s this possible? Like? What is this show?

Lara Taylor 30:05
Look at this these people are babies in the show.

Link Keller 30:07
little babies

Josué Cardona 30:08
Yeah, yeah. And there’s so many reasons why you might want to watch a show. So like, I don’t know if any of you have. I don’t know. So, you know, I’ve had friends and partners, and they’re like watching something. And I’m gonna, I’m gonna take a quick detour and then come back. When, when I was in Puerto Rico, when Hurricane Maria happened, right, I like last three months of my life, right? And then, up until that point, like I loved watching shows, I wouldn’t miss an episode, you know, and I would catch up. And like I was, it was a part of my life. Once that happened. I was like, wait a minute, there’s no way I can catch up, I can’t just catch up to like three months worth of stuff. Not really, and then keep going. And I don’t know, there was something about that, that that kind of changed my perspective on, on my commitment to shows or what I was expecting out of them. And, for example, and when we did the Assassin’s Creed, project, Marc, you and I, like, there were some games that I played through. And some I was like, No, I’m just gonna watch a walkthrough. Because there’s no way I can, I can dedicate this much time to it. Because there I just, I mostly wanted the story. And I wanted to share in your experience, there have been shows where, you know, someone’s watching. It’s like, oh, you’ve got to watch this amazing episode, I’m not going to come in and be like asking a million questions and be like, no, no, I need to watch the first seven first, and then I’ll watch the eighth one with you. Like, I just jump in and be like, okay, because this is a particular experience. And so going into any show, I mean, I get it, like, you go to the movie theater, and like, you’re expecting to have a good time, by the end of the movie, like ‘this sucked!’ of obviously, it’s disappointing. But there’s a different type of, there’s something about going into not just the TV show, but any situation in your life with particular expectations. And then, and then, yeah, the disappointment that you might feel, and some of them, some of our expectations are, I would say, not beneficial to us or pretty unhealthy. Right? Because some of it is just like the idea of it like, Yeah, I’m bummed that the Batgirl movie didn’t come out, I have no idea if it’s good or not. Right? I mean, it could, it could have been absolute garbage. There are reasons why I wanted it to succeed. I’m curious about it, I’d still like to see it. But, like, my attachment to it was was to an idea of it, right? There was no promise that that would be a satisfying, and there are so many shows and movies, and I don’t know, I keep going back to relationships, but it can be our attachment and relationships or anything, experiences, objects, people, right, where are we do have these expectations that are and they’re one sided, you know, like, you know, the show is trying to do one thing, and um, you know, and I want another thing out of it. And Netflix has its own criteria for what is successful or not, like you said at the beginning. Yeah. And that, that has to do with money and, and people subscribing. And it has to do with a whole bunch of stuff in the background, not how much you love to right It’s much more of a quantity than than a quality thing. And, and so, I think about, I’m constantly thinking about this, like, what am I trying to get out of this? What do I want? And is it worth sticking around? Even if I know it’s not going to be like, is the ending really why I’m here? Or is it the journey? When I I’ve gone to visit my mom a few times recently. She loves procedurals. That is wonderful. Because I can jump in at any point and it does not matter.

Lara Taylor 33:51
Yeah, your mom and I share a love of Grey’s Anatomy.

Josué Cardona 33:54
Yeah, but like there is no, there is no, I mean, you know, this sort of some people have stories that you may want to see the beginning and end of but like the show doesn’t have an ending, it will end eventually. But there’s no one story. Really, there’s multiple stories that happen. And there’s some procedurals that are completely like it’s just a case every week, right? Like the people who are that the main cast, it doesn’t really matter. Brooklyn nine nine, that was a you know, as a sitcom that was as a sitcoms, or it’s just just a case every week. Sure, there’s some throughputs. But you know, yeah, you could, is that really why you’re there because you want to see if they have a baby or not if they get married or not, maybe, maybe not, but everybody’s reasons for following these are, are different. So going into any kind of experience or relationship, it the the expectations that you have going in, affects so much what the outcome can be. Because if you’re just like, grateful for the good time, the beginning, you probably you know, you end up being satisfied more often than not, versus having these really high expectations. And then at the end of it, whether the show ends or not. Maybe you didn’t like the ending. Maybe you want it to be different. Maybe you’d imagine something else maybe even even in the cases where like, it’s gone forever, and there’s no way to see it. Because HBO decided to shelve it. And now there’s no way you can ever see this thing again. Legally, anyway. it’s like uhhh. Well, at least you know, how often do you say like, wow, at least I had that experience, you know, versus Oh, they took they took something away from me. I am less of a person now.

Lara Taylor 35:33
That’s, that’s very interesting, because for me, I feel like even if I don’t like the ending, I would like to have the opportunity to have an ending whether it was garbage or not. And it’s interesting that you mentioned that with procedurals too, because I watch, I watch a lot of procedurals, and every procedural that we watch is less about the medicine, less about the fire less about the police work more about the people on the show, and the story threads go all through the seasons now. Instead of being that you can jump in and Nina’s mom has come over and like watched one of our procedurals and she can kind of follow what’s going on. But there is usually a lot of like, why is she yelling at that guy? Why is this going on? Who are they to each other. And so that’s and that’s because of the way our storytelling has shifted. It’s less the monster of the week, or case of the week, there’s three part things. Bad guys come back from the last season and come after people. And I think we have become accustomed to like, this method of storytelling, where it’s not just a half hour an hour beginning middle end. But it’s a whole eight episode, beginning middle end, five season Beginning, middle end, Grey’s Anatomy, 20, season, Beginning, middle end.

Josué Cardona 37:11
Right. So all of this, all of this is true. And then but if you go into every single, right, new experience hoping for that, that it’ll last 20 seasons, it’s like setting yourself up for the expectations are very high, very few shows are gonna last as long as as Grey’s Anatomy.

Lara Taylor 37:31
Right,

Josué Cardona 37:31
right. And very few shows are going to.

Lara Taylor 37:36
But for me, it’s not about whether it last 20 years or not. It could last one year. And as long as it has an ending that feels like an ending. Okay, cool.

Josué Cardona 37:47
And if it doesn’t?

Lara Taylor 37:50
then that really sucks. And it doesn’t necessarily feel like I wasted my time. But if it is something someone wants me to watch, they’d have to have a pretty compelling reason to get me to watch something to feel an attachment to that. Like, I know I’m going to be disappointed in the end.

Marc Cuiriz 38:10
I think you guys are you guys are bringing up some some points here and Josué You’re really making me think here for a minute. Because now I’m you’re making me try to view the Percy Jackson series. Now you’re making me view that completely differently now. Because so, to kind of go back a little bit about like movies and stuff. When you were talking about like the Batgirl movie, you’re like, you know, it sucks, you would wanted to have seen it go a different way. But honestly, you you don’t know if it was good, or if it was bad or garbage or anything like that. And to me that the first thought to my head was like, Well, I’m certainly glad that they did not make any more Percy Jackson movies because those things were hot garbage to me as a person that was a really big fan. And I remember going to see the first movie and I had that expectation of like, oh, this is this should be pretty good. Like, I enjoyed the series. I’m, you know, my mom’s bringing me to this. It should be good. And then I remember walking away. I’m like, I have so many problems, so many issues. I have so many questions for the director here. What did I just watch? What did I just waste like? Like an hour and a half on? And so now with the series coming out, I know that the

Link Keller 39:29
you’re building those expectations all over again.

Marc Cuiriz 39:32
I mean, I know I know. That’s the thing. It’s like

Link Keller 39:35
but there is such a difference between film storytelling and episodic series storytelling like so I feel like like maybe it’s okay to get your expectations up a little bit more?

Marc Cuiriz 39:47
And what also built up the expectation is that for the film, the author of the books, he had virtually no say, and he tried to talk to the director to make changes because It’s his book and his story. And they basically said buzz off. So he was like, that’s cool. He doesn’t really like the film’s at all. But now he’s very heavily involved in this series. So, but again, it’s one of those things where they could literally just do the one season and cover the one book. And Disney might decide, You know what, we’re not going to do the rest, we’re not going to do the next y’know it’s not going to get renewed for a second season or anything like that. And to me, I think I would be okay with that, as long as they do really well to really tell at least the first book in a very satisfying way. Because at this point, like, I’m already invested enough in the characters and in the story, that now it’s just, I’m just getting a visual visualization of it. So I wouldn’t necessarily feel as bad because I know that those books are there. And that if I really wanted to continue the story, I could literally just walk upstairs and grab the second book, and then start reading it.

Lara Taylor 41:02
And that’s the thing that comes up in this situation, you have a beginning, middle and an end, to fall back on. Like you have context, you know, what is going to happen to these characters, you know, where the story goes. And leaving people hanging is not great. I mean, there are some things I used to want to push through and finish reading something, I’ll give a show a few episodes before I give up on it, just because I know sometimes the first one or two isn’t great. But after that, now I will like okay, I’m not going to watch it anymore. It’s not my thing, because of how much there is to consume. But like I think of the Avatar, The Last Airbender movie. And like, I watched 10 minutes of it. And I was like, forget that. Because I already had an image of what the story went through and the characters went through. It was just another telling of it, that wasn’t great. So I don’t know, it’s, it’s, there’s a difference there, then like, this is your only experience with these, these people in this story. And you don’t get to know what happens. And in real life, a lot of times we don’t get to know what happens. And that’s why we want to in a story.

Josué Cardona 42:23
No, this is Geek Therapy, not casual therapy. So you know a lot of things that we’re talking about, they other people experience them differently. Like, there are people who turn the TV on and watch half an episode of something, and the first half of another one, and then that’s it, then they’re good. There are people who go see a Marvel movie without having seen the ones before. And they’re like, that was cool. That was a lot of fun. I do not relate to that. Right. But these, these these pieces of media serve different purposes, the powers that be are not necessarily there to y’know trying to please us or give us exactly what we want. There isn’t like a contract. There be between us. So I think there’s so many different expectations that we can have. But as I do, I am jealous of people who can just go in and be like, oh, yeah, I’m gonna watch this thing. And then not care about the 37 references that they missed in the first half hour, or how it connects to the to everything else over the years.

Lara Taylor 43:40
the shows and yeah

Josué Cardona 43:41
And all this other rare like there’s, there’s just a lot there. But I think there’s something there’s like something to learn from that. And it’s something that I’ve been trying to get to, because I have I’ve I’m an old man now who doesn’t get as upset as he used to, but I used to get very upset when things were gonna get canceled or but yeah, I mean, it’s it’s hard. It’s hard, but it’s because of the attachment that we that we have to it. There was one there’s also there’s one there’s a tik tok that I saw recently, I you save something you never see it again. But it was he was talking about storytelling. And he said that there were three different ways. There are three different reasons why people like a story. And this may be completely wrong, but this is how I remember

Link Keller 44:33
or you’re talking about the why people read books one right? yeah

Josué Cardona 44:38
it was like the world building one was the characters in the story. I think those are the three

Link Keller 44:42
Yeah.

Josué Cardona 44:44
Right. And, and I really liked that because I was like, oh, like that’s why I can have a debate with one of you about a story. And I can say it’s one of my favorite books and you’re like that book was garbage. Right but it’s because

Link Keller 44:55
I never said that

Josué Cardona 44:58
literally on this show this has happened

Marc Cuiriz 45:01
If hasn’t I’ll be the first one to say sorry Josué that book was garbage.

Josué Cardona 45:05
how dare you. But it’s it’s like, Oh, what did you come here looking for it’s like Oh, I mean, like, sure. Grey’s Anatomy. Are you you’re there for the for the characters. Right?

Lara Taylor 45:19
Yeah,

Josué Cardona 45:20
there for the characters, right. So

Lara Taylor 45:23
many of whom are gone from the show, but I got an ending.

Josué Cardona 45:27
Right, right. Right. But

Link Keller 45:28
there’s some sort of sunk cost fallacy there where it’s like, I’ve been watching it for so long, like, I’m not gonna dip out now.

Lara Taylor 45:36
But I have with some shows, I didn’t watch the final season of Bones like, I don’t know. Anyway,

Link Keller 45:44
I think

Josué Cardona 45:45
people have different reasons for watching.

Link Keller 45:47
This is very much in line with needs and gratifications theory, which is one of the main tent poles of media psychology, but it is very much that ideas like the individual audience member, consumer of whatever type of media is like why they are there, what they are expecting what needs they are trying to get gratified through a piece of media and that’s different per person. And its people go in with different expectations, depending on what the media is, right? Yeah, people have different expectations from like, a very story focused show like The Midnight Club than they do for Grey’s Anatomy, or Brooklyn nine nine that those those mesh together very well.

Josué Cardona 46:35
Yeah. I when I when I did couples counseling when I was I was the couples counselor, and I would help people with their relationships. One thing, I would ask them, like, it sounds like, Okay, this thing that you’re saying the other person didn’t do? Did they agree to this? Like did y’all sign a contract? And then you’d see like, oh, we have completely we’re both playing by a completely different set of rules here. You know, and, and, of course, when we’re talking about media in this way, I think for the most part, we’re talking about it in a in a one sided way, right? But there’s still this. Again, it’s that contract, it’s like, Okay, I’m gonna sit down, you gotta give me five seasons five, good seasons, you’re gonna complete this story, you’re never going to recast, you’re always going to give me good opening and closing songs. Right? It’s like, you’re never gonna change the animation studio halfway. Like there’s all these things, right, that we that we want, that we that we hope for going in. And I think there’s a, there’s a huge difference. I think the whole point of this is there’s a huge difference between hoping and wanting something and demanding that it be a certain way and be and be like, attached to that have that expectation and be so rigid about it, because most of the time, it’s not gonna follow through

Link Keller 47:50
that is such a great jumping off point for the point I brought up earlier about certain shows getting canceled. And then coming back examples being Futurama arrested development, Chuck and community and the way that people fought to get those shows to come back. And they were not they were not the same they were not the whatever je ne sais quoi was in them was gone at the return. All four of those shows I just listed. I watched the early seasons loved them obsessed, thinking about them all the time really disappointed when they got canceled. And then when they came back, I was like, oh, oh, okay. That’s there. There we go. Sure. I’m glad that this is back…

Josué Cardona 48:52
Is community getting a movie?

Link Keller 48:53
Supposedly, supposedly? Who knows?

Josué Cardona 48:59
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There’s um I wonder how many people have been pissed for decades. That Mel Brooks’ history of the world part one never got to part two. And last week, I saw the trailer for the history of the world part two, and I was like, How is this what it doesn’t even like, I know he’s trying to do the same thing, but it doesn’t even seem like

Link Keller 49:22
I thought that that was part of the joke is like,

Josué Cardona 49:25
I know,

Link Keller 49:26
it’s just called part one. And there there was never intended to be a part two. There never will be a part two, like,

Josué Cardona 49:33
look, I’m gonna be honest. I was not sure that Mel Brooks was even alive until I saw him. Introduce that trailer last week. It’s um, this is a real thing, just in case. Right? Like you’ve seen this right. Link, you’ve seen it?

Link Keller 49:48
nope, no, this is News for me

Josué Cardona 49:50
oh, no, no, I’m not making this up. This is a real thing.

Lara Taylor 49:53
it’s a real thing.

Link Keller 49:54
I don’t like it!

Lara Taylor 49:58
I’ve never really looked like I never gave Mel Brooks good enough of a chance. And there were movies of his that I turned off like 10 minutes in when I was a kid because I didn’t get it or like it. And now I’m like, maybe I’ll give it a chance. Because when Nina tried to show me a Mel Brooks movie to get me into it, she showed me Blazing Saddles. And I was like, I can’t get past how dated

Link Keller 50:23
that’s one of my faves. Young Frankenstein is actually my favorite, but Blazing Saddles is close second.

Marc Cuiriz 50:30
Oh my god, I just saw a tik tok about Blazing Saddles the other night. And I just That’s my only new like, point of reference for that movie. And it was it was like the these two guys and they were like, wildly uncomfortable with the opening of it. And they’re like, did he just did he just say and yeah, but hooo

Link Keller 50:53
Yeah, I think I think that does also fall under the comedy is very much contextualized by when it was made and when it came out. And I think comedy and horror have a lot of overlap in this in that is very much a product of its time and often does not age well because of that. Which makes the stuff that does age well really special. But yeah.

Josué Cardona 51:21
So yeah, sir the world prior to coming to Hulu. I’m not lying. Go check it out. After this recording. I thought it was a good example of like, it’s coming back. Is that do I want it to come back? y’know? Did I to ask for this. We, and that happens a lot now, by the way. Because there’s a long list of shows that have been

Link Keller 51:42
rebooted

Josué Cardona 51:43
revived.

Link Keller 51:43
Yeah. That 90s show. I’m like, Okay, well, I don’t know that we need to do that. But okay, here we are.

Josué Cardona 51:52
We’ve got Punky Brewster, we’ve got Fuller House and we’ve got quantum leap

Marc Cuiriz 51:57
they have the continuation of iCarly. And it was like now more adult themed.

Josué Cardona 52:03
Yeah, I’m sure

Lara Taylor 52:04
I am enjoying the L word generation Q. That was a show that had a very unsatisfactory ending. And I was okay with because it felt like an ending. I wish it had something different, but it was good. And now it’s back. And I’m actually feeling like, even better, and it’s gonna be sad when that ends too. But at least hopefully, it gets another season because they left it on a really big cliffhanger this time. So

Josué Cardona 52:32
and there’s an of course, it’s, it’s natural to feel sad. And when losing something or when being disappointed.

Link Keller 52:39
And sometimes that is a fulfilling emotion, right when something ends and it’s sad. Like that, that can be a positive experience, even though we associate sadness with negative emotions is like, not really but like,

Josué Cardona 52:54
yeah, you can be it there’s a healthy side on the side and an unhealthy side.

Link Keller 52:58
there’s like sadness because like, it’s over and then there’s like sadness, because it didn’t end quite how you hoped and dreamed it would. And then there’s sadness because it’s just dead no more. You don’t get anything.

Josué Cardona 53:13
But it’s, it’s sad because it’s not because it’s over one way or the other. And it’s different to win. It’s sad because I didn’t get what I deserved. And what I’m entitled to, and what I thought I was promised,

Link Keller 53:28
oh man my

Josué Cardona 53:28
and Now I’m pissed

Link Keller 53:31
for like the entitlement aspects like I have a bunch of animated shows are on this list. Dead End paranormal Park, which we did an episode on last year Tuca and Bertie which got canceled and then brought back and then canceled again. The midnight gospel. Infinity Train, OK K.O. I feel I was spoiled by the gloriousness of adventure time’s full story, actually very satisfying ending. Steven Universe also great. We got a full story it ended we got the Steven Universe future did the same thing. Like it was very satisfying. And then it’s like all these shows that he’s really into Bojack Horseman also had a not happy ending but a satisfying story arc for its seasons. And so it’s like all these other shows. I’m like, I deserve to have gotten 10 seasons of OK K.O. I deserve to have gotten 11 seasons in a movie of dead end paranormal Park and Tuca & Bertie. This is bullshit that I didn’t get what I am entitled to as a cartoon Viewer. This is I’m writing but then it’s like, back to what I said before. It’s like, if it does come back, it might not be as good it might be the magic might be gone.

Josué Cardona 54:55
I want every show to be short and so Perfect that I can read that I want to rewatch it and enjoy it again

Link Keller 55:03
look, every show can’t be the good place, but it should be!! four perfect seasons like what, come on?

Josué Cardona 55:15
I was I was talking to our friend Jessica. The other day was it, Jessica? No. But I was talking to Jessica about one thing. And I was talking to Kayla about another one. Let me see. Now this one was Kayla. I think this was kayla, also friend of the show. About. Yeah, this was about the last of us. So it’s definitely Kayla. And

Lara Taylor 55:39
it could’ve been Jessica,

Josué Cardona 55:40
could’ve been Jessica. Yeah, it was It wasn’t talking about VR with Jessica. So. So Kayla, we were discussing about like, oh, will they? Will there be will the entire Last of Us Part One game be the whole season one. And at first, I thought now there’s no way that they won’t stretch it out. into at least two seasons. But then that’s that’s me thinking of the like the greediness of it, right? Like, the ideal is that they would take that story and just make it very tight. Perfect first season and wrap it up and tell that story. And I’m hoping that that’s what happeneds

Link Keller 56:22
I I’ve been saying and very slight spoilers here. But if they don’t have the giraffe scene in this first season, I am going to riot. And I was talking to my friend about this today. And he’s like, that’s like, right at the end of the game. There’s no way it’s gonna be in the first season. I’m like, I’m gonna riot!!

Lara Taylor 56:42
Well, and you know, they’ve moved some things around in this in this, like the second episode, since I literally just played the game. I’m like, oh, that’s from after this other thing. Which is nice, because I don’t know exactly everything that happens. But I don’t know, I the first episode was literally like the first hour of gameplay. So I know it’s not gonna stay hour for hour on all of this. But the first season is only nine episodes, I think.

Link Keller 57:13
It’s like, in the adaptation,

Lara Taylor 57:15
they might stretch it out.

Link Keller 57:16
Like, in some things, they get to sort of stretch out and give more characterization and more we’re world building, which I love. But also we’re saving so much time because we’re not collecting items to build shivs, like got it balance out, right? I want the giraffe scene!

Lara Taylor 57:36
I think I think that scene is poignant enough in the game that it needs. Like it’s an emotional touch point to in the game. So

Link Keller 57:46
it’s probably the highlight of that game to me. Like I can’t conceive of a way that they wouldn’t include it in the show. I’m going to be mad if it’s not in this first season.

Lara Taylor 57:58
What what if it’s not giraffes What if it’s like elephants?

Josué Cardona 58:03
it can’t be no

Link Keller 58:04
the giraffe

Josué Cardona 58:05
Yep. Well, it may be nine episodes. But I think Episode Three is an hour and a half. So yeah, that’s true.

Lara Taylor 58:11
That’s true. And the first one was like an hour and a half. It was like hour and 20. And

Josué Cardona 58:15
just with the way that HBO is doing things. I mean,

Link Keller 58:18
HBO has always been sort of a special case, but also just in general, the way that TV shows are now versus 10-15 years ago. I have higher standards now.

Josué Cardona 58:32
Yeah, but But um, what I was saying was that HBO the way that they’re canceling everything and getting rid of it now, I hope they get, you know, I hope season that we may not get to Season Two no matter how good it is.

Lara Taylor 58:44
I mean that it had the it had the highest viewership of any show other than house of the dragon in this past year. And the second episode had more viewership than the first one, which is not normal.

Link Keller 59:00
Yeah.

Lara Taylor 59:01
So I think

Josué Cardona 59:03
HBO makes some movies and doesn’t release them. They don’t.

Lara Taylor 59:06
But but it’s all about the numbers. And I think there’s a lot of the shows that they or movies that they canceled they thought weren’t going to be as popular. I don’t know. Which Which sucks because it’s because it’s a female lead or a queer lead or a person of color as the lead. I don’t know.

Josué Cardona 59:27
A lot of stuff is is money stuff. I mean, I’m just saying, See, we’re going in with a see we’re making reason we’re making up excuses. Yep, we’re setting a decision and we’re already justifying, right? That there’s no way they could do that to us. There’s no way right. I’m over here saying like, they could like if it’s a possibility, I’m going in thinking it could. We may not even get everything you know,

Lara Taylor 59:51
and this show probably isn’t going to go on and on and on because they’ve already said it’s only going to go as far as the games and they aren’t going to do game of thrones and go past the source material. Which means unless Last of Us Part Three comes out like in the next couple of years. but we’re not gonna we’re not gonna get further than

Josué Cardona 1:00:12
now I’m gonna I’m gonna flip this on you with your own words from before. More people saw this then then the first episode of house of dragons and more than the second episode. Who knows, we’ll get a prequel we’ll get at what happens in between, we’ll get a story about but that who knows, we’ll get

Lara Taylor 1:00:32
I mean,

Josué Cardona 1:00:32
like three sideshows about we’ll get one about the what’s the what’s the group? The fireflies are the the fireflies in that right? Yeah, we’ll get a whole, you know, side story and I like.

Lara Taylor 1:00:43
But side stories and prequels are a little different from continuing a story and trying to predict where it’s going to end up. Although, I mean, the game also

Link Keller 1:00:53
it’s also an adaptation of a game versus an adaptation of a book series.

Josué Cardona 1:00:57
I’m saying I have zero expectations, anything is possible

Link Keller 1:00:59
anything can happen.

Lara Taylor 1:01:00
anything is possible

Josué Cardona 1:01:01
So I’m down for ending or not ending or whatever. That’s how I’m going into it haven’t started yet. But I want to go into it. Feeling that way, especially knowing that anything is possible

Lara Taylor 1:01:14
anything can happen.

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:15
Listen, I don’t know about you guys, but I have nothing but the highest of expectations. For the Assassin’s Creed series, when it does come out on Netflix, just nothing but 10 out of 10 quality and storytelling and just they need to check off all the boxes,

Link Keller 1:01:32
I expect it to be as good as Jessica Jones season one.

Lara Taylor 1:01:38
But But, but here’s the thing

Link Keller 1:01:38
but also get axed like Jessica Jones and all of the other Marvel shows.

Lara Taylor 1:01:45
But here’s the thing with the Assassin’s Creed, like, I’m gonna have different things that I want included than you do. There is so much source material and like, I’d be happy with just the Valhalla show like

Marc Cuiriz 1:01:58
Well, that’s what I’m saying like the i This is why I say I have nothing but the highest expectations that it’s going to check off the box for every single person’s individual taste of what they’re looking for in the show.

Josué Cardona 1:02:09
It’s healthy sounds healthy

Lara Taylor 1:02:10
sounds real healthy,

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:13
of course. I’m just you know, slightly, you know, completely enthralled in this whole world. It’s fine, guys. It’s healthy. I promise

Josué Cardona 1:02:23
is there is an Assassin’s Creed show coming. Is that what you’re referring to? Is that thing,

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:27
there’s two there’s going to be a live action show and an animated show.

Link Keller 1:02:31
Oh my goodness.

Josué Cardona 1:02:31
When did this happen?

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:33
They have

Lara Taylor 1:02:34
where have you been Josué?

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:35
Yeah, they announced that like a year or two ago.

Link Keller 1:02:38
You’re gonna have to relaunch the Assassin’s Creed podcast.

Josué Cardona 1:02:41
I think so, Yeah, also

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:44
honestly with Mirage coming out later this year I just might get relaunched I might just get so enthralled by it like Josué we got to do it again.

Josué Cardona 1:02:51
Also Ubisoft is like in bad shape. So again, like you know anything is possible.

Lara Taylor 1:02:57
Anything is possible.

Marc Cuiriz 1:02:58
Anything is

Josué Cardona 1:03:01
remember 2019 how we thought 2020 was gonna turn out?

Link Keller 1:03:04
ugh

Josué Cardona 1:03:05
this has been GTRadio on the geek therapy network thank you for joining us, if you want to join the conversation, check out our community spaces, links are in the show notes. Reminder, TAGGS 2023 is coming soon. If you hear this you know as a as we’re publishing it you can check out taggsummit.org T A G G S u m m i t I think that’s right .org. And for more Geek Therapy, visit geek therapy.org Remember to geek out to do good. and we’ll back next week.

Link Keller 1:03:38
mmmBuh bye.

Josué Cardona 1:03:41
Expect fantastic episodes always 100% never disappoint you always under an hour always published on time. Thank you.

Josué Cardona 1:03:53
Geek Therapy is a 501 C three nonprofit organization dedicated to making the world a better place through geek culture. To learn more about our mission and become a supporter, visit geek therapy.org

Transcribed by https://otter.ai and Link Keller